The Qwer Old Fella's Marathon Method

Tough workout! Good call on the nap. Critical to recuperate after such intensity. Rest those fingers.

Sounds like you are one serious cook! Wish I was.

What type of cross training do you do?

Here's a question for possibly both Bam and Matt...is there any way to prevent/reduce fibrous tissue from forming? My hamstring forms these huge lumps all along the muscle that cause pain. I assume massage and stretching...any other suggestions from the pros?

Oh just got it...the cross training was cooking :)

Andrea, I don't do cross training. I've never done it. I think it causes more problems than it solves. Most cross training isn't functional for runners or members of the public. It teaches the muscles to function in ways that are counter productive for running and results in more injuries. Also, even those who understand soft tissue mechanics rarely understand the physiology of overload and execution of strength/cross training. Very few gym instructors/personal trainers really know their stuff, so what hope is there for runners?

Yes, there's a good case for the non- weight bearing side of things and the fat burning and keeping the cardio high etc but once you're on the cross training stuff, I believe you become more prone to injuries. Look at how the body works on the elliptical... Apart from the comedic value of watching people on the elliptical and other cross training devices, you have to ask, does anybody actually walk or run the way they move on a cross training machine?

I think if you're injured, you should rest. Maybe swimming. But I hate swimming.

It would take me days to go into the many reasons why cross training is bad for runners and most sports for that matter. People have been duped by marketing gurus from gyms.

Yes, some people seem to thrive on cross training but if you look closely, you have to ask, do they really? Odd how people who spend lots of time in the gym end up being injured more than those who don't touch the gym. How much better would they be if they spent more time running and training smartly.

That's ironic coming from me (injured and all that). But I think most injuries are the result of poor training rather than bad luck. I know mine is because I tried to do too much without enough rest. Got too eager.

On the fibrous tissue stuff, I find AIS, MET, trigger pointing, and positional release techniques are great. Massage from a good therapist is excellent but expensive. I've just ordered a roller but I know it's going to help. I used a rolling pin the other day and felt that I 'needed' something softer.

Back in the olden days, when core meant the part of an apple you throw away after eating, runners did push ups and sit ups and, imo, were all the better for it. I think the whole plank thing is what may have triggered my problems - as well as doing too much.

Interesting thoughts Bam. I understand where you are coming from with cross training, especially the elliptical. It puts the body in an unnatural position. Do you think the bike is a poor choice as well? I've always thought it was a good alternative and am torn on benefits vs. drawbacks. Swimming, pool running, Alter-G...these seem like good alternatives to running (like you mentioned) because they all allow free motion.

Thanks for your input on the fibrous tissue stuff. I'll look into those options in more detail. Most require a very knowledgeable therapist which I have found to be the most challenging part.

Very impressive response regarding cross-training, Bam. Very thought provoking. I've had similar thoughts, but you bring up several good points. Tough dilemma: wanting to keep fitness while at the same time not wanting to become more injury prone.

Regarding your fibrous tissue question, Andrea, Bam has given great advice. I strongly believe stretching and strengthening are important, as is massage. Formal massage is great, but as Bam said, it's expensive. Self roller's work also, but perhaps my favorite is convincing a family member to stick an elbow, palm of hand, thumb, or whatever into wherever hurts -- and to really massage the area (not fun but really works). Another form of treatment that I've seen really help patients is ASTYM and the Graston technique. For these techniques, trained physical therapists use devices for deep massage. Again, probably expensive since it requires visiting someone trained in the techniques, but definitely something I'd consider doing.

Andrea - on the bike question, I think it all depends on what injury plagues you.

For me, if it's a soft tissue injury (tear/compartment syndrome/tendonitis etc) I think it's wiser to completely rest as the body needs time to tackle any inflammation; exercise will exacerbate problems, although some mild/warm up type stuff (after the acute phase - normally 48hrs if my memory serves me) may help bring in needed nutrients etc from blood flow - that's why AIS is excellent. It brings in controlled amounts of blood and stretches fibrous tissue through reciprocal inhibition (antagonistic muscles contract, causing the muscle you want to hit to relax). There's no myotatic stretch, which is good - you don't want to deprive the muscle of oxygen.

Furthermore, because your brain and nervous system are engaged, you are opening new neural pathways (a good thing).

Also, AIS mobilises lymph, which is important in the healing process.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but if you google 'Hope on a rope', you'll find an article by Ger Hartmann (PT to Paula Radcliffe and many of the world's top runners and other sports people). There's a simple routine he goes through - it takes 10 mins and it's the dogs!- you might need Fiddy to explain that expression to you:)

Matt - I agree with you on the ASTYM and Graston techniques. I just wish I knew somebody in my area to give me a good scraping.:)

Sorry Andrea, I didn't answer the question about pool running and Alter G. Yes, I think these are good methods of cross training as they replicate the action of running without the weight bearing problems.

That said, again, it depends on the injury. We're suffering from some sort of soft tissue/neural ouchy thing that causes strange aches and forces our hamstring muscles and lower back to compensate for our buttocks not working efficiently. With this type of problem, I think you need time to let things settle and deal with the triggers first.

Once you've blasted the triggers you start to stretch through AIS, and then finally, add in positional release (sometimes called position of ease), which is the opposite of stretching and is surprisingly very effective - I'm sure that I've finally sorted my problem today after a session of AIS and positional release.

I understand why you're cross training but take a step back and try to look at the problem in a more holistic way. Is exercise hindering/precluding you from getting healthy again? Would a week/two weeks of rest and trigger pointing and AIS and positional release help. I think so. You're nearly there and may only need a couple of days of rest.

Trigger pointing is easy when you know the main triggers for our type of problem (soleus - think about it for a moment and it'll make sense - piriformis, and quadratus lumborum); AIS I've been through and positional release you can do with a skipping rope if you're a saddo like me and nobody will help you.

Hope that amswers your questions and more importantly, makes sense and is helpful.

Thank you Bam and Matt. I love learning about this stuff and I appreciate your help. I want to get healthy the right way and prevent injuries in the future, so your knowledge and expertise is getting me on the right track!

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to add to this conversation, but it sure has been interesting to read. It's very good insight.

When I'm hurt I usually don't cross train out of laziness. But now I don't have to feel as bad about it :-)

Bam I hope you can get back out there soon (and you too Andrea)! It sounds like you're doing all the right things.

Thanks Riley. If I'm honest, I'm too lazy to cross train as well:)

I'm going out tomorrow. Fingers crossed all will be ok.

Andrea, I forgot to mention the most important muscle - psoas - that needs to be triggered and released too. Probably more so than any other muscle.

Well considering the psoas is why I've been injured for the last 6 months, I've figured that one out on my own! Strained hamstring -> strained psoas -> glute pain + pelvic instability. I'm now working my way backwards but now is the tough part...finding the true source and preventing this from ever happening again.

I just now came across this very thought provoking conversation. I will say it's a bit hard for me to believe that my cross-training is actually causing my injuries because the cross-training I do does not hurt the areas that are injured. What cross-training does do is allow me to stay fit while I am not able to run as much as I would like. I realize that it isn't making me a faster runner but at least it is helping me maintain my fitness and build endurance, so I see it as a good thing compared to the alternative of doing nothing. Believe it or not, biking for 6 hours up mountains will help your endurance; case in point Justin Park who did a ton of road biking last year and dropped his marathon PR by 6 minutes. What I do agree with, and it depends on the injury, is that some cross-training can prolong an injury. For instance, in 2010 when I ruined my IT band I kept biking and I think that delayed my recovery by a couple of months. Swimming, on the other hand, is one exercise I think you are safe to do with most injuries. I really just don't like it so I don't do it anymore. Thinking back when I used to swim around 4 miles a week I never was injured...hmmm...

Anyway, I think there is a lot of validity in the opinions above but I still wanted to throw in my two cents because my experience with cross-training sounds different than yours and has resulted in different outcomes. I will say that I wish I could run more and cross-train less because the specificity of running training is obviously the best and most efficient way to get faster. While you may be too lazy to cross-train, I am too lazy to do AIS, the roller, icing and strength training on a regular schedule.

This is a great discussion. Some excellent info here. I do tend to lean toward what Fritz says as my experience has been similar. Cross training on the bike, elliptical and weights was the brunt of what I could do when coming back from my pubic symphis stress fracture last year. I know that I was much better off cross training those 12 weeks than doing nothing. And the roller would not have done me much good because I wasn't injured in the muscle.

This did inspire me to try something new (for me) today that worked pretty good by running at a very slow speed on a very high incline. This minimized the impact and I could still work on my form.

Thanks for all of the input here from everyone. I think that ultimately there is a different recipe for success for each individual/injury.

I've been following this thread but haven't commented yet. Lots of good thoughts here from a variety of areas of expertise. Its great how we can share these ideas and learn from each other.

I think what Fritz/Brandon are saying is valid - XT is good for maintaining general aerobic fitness. If you're hurt for a while, you don't want to be starting back at square one. And cardio obviously keeps the lbs off as well :-)

I'm highly motivated to do the things I like to do, but I have zero motivation to get in a gym and cross train. For me, "XT" is playing in the mountains (skiing, hiking, mountain biking) and is more of a mental change of pace than anything else.

I touched on this a bit in my blog today in the comments, but I think when your heavy in the midst of training, already in very good shape, and trying to get specifically prepared for a target race, you don't really want to be doing too much non-running specific exercise. You want to keep your brain wired for those specific movement patterns. But that's just my extra 2 cents.

Excellent comments from everyone. I've learned a lot. I feel the truth for a given individual lies somewhere in the middle of these views and opinions. Good stuff. Always a lot to learn. Thanks.

There's seems to be a common thread and that is, with certain types of injuries, some form of cross training is beneficial for maintaining some degree of aerobic fitness. But it's complicated...

Golfers used to think all they had to do was master the elements of a perfect swing, then TW arrived & changed the mentality of almost every player on tour. My opinion is cross training is essential; if you want to prevent injury, you must strengthen the muscles in a balanced manner. Certain muscles may not be critical to running, but they play a vital role in supporting those muscles that are ... Just my two cents.

I agree with you, JG. Not wishing to be flippant but your solution is in fact a major part of the problem...

Let's skip the whole cross training when injured stuff and look at X/T to prevent injury.

How does one X/T to strengthen the muscles in a balanced manner? What muscles need to be balanced? How do you know when they are balanced? What percentage of X/T to running assists in this fine balancing act?

There are many more questions, all of which are valid. Most personal trainers and gym instructors struggle to understand the 'simple' mechanics of the body - never mind the origins, insertions, actions, etc. and reactions to basic overload principles. And then when it comes to lifting techniques, gyms are riddled with meat-heads and runners who are crippling themselves.

So how does the average runner work out how to cross train effectively?

That said, just because working out how to X/T or carry out effective functional training is problematic, doesn't mean we shouldn't look at it.

Also, because many of the world's elite runners don't cross train doesn't mean that cross training isn't worth doing. I suspect if 24hr Fitness or Fitness First were to set up shop in Iten, you'd see loads of Kenyans strolling around in lycra and headbands as they headed off to one of Brother Colm's Zumba classes:) Would they hammer away on the elliptical? I very much doubt it. Again, because the Kenyan's don't do it, doesn't mean we shouldn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate of functional training to balance out weaknesses, but understanding these weaknesses is very difficult even for the more sagacious. I've trained many top sports people and always used weights and cross training kit, amongst other things:) in their schedules.

In the hands of the ignorant, machines are dangerous. That's why, when it comes to my training, I stay away from them.

And just to let all of you know, in case any of you didn't know, I'm gonna break the world marathon record in the 50-55 age group, which means that I have to run faster than Jake Orangina Krong - Easypeasylemonsqueasy:)

Ignorant is a harsh word, although spoken somewhat tongue in cheek. :) I am far less knowledgeable than you on the topic I am sure, and agree that improper cross training can be detrimental. Every injury/situation is unique, so it is hard to throw out broad statements that carry validity, regardless if the person speaking them has 4 phd's ... my only point was one can certainly not disregard the value of cross training when done wisely. While cross training can aggravate injury, it can also help to resolve it & prevent it ... but like you said, it is complicated!

Just so it's clear, I edited my previous comment as JG was posting. JG isn't nuts, his comments make sense based on my first draft:) I posted it before I had finished the fine tuning:)

JG I'm with you. TW is a great example as is Canova with his training methods. Another example is triathletes - they run, swim and bike and lift. Lots of them X/T too. There are plenty of triathletes who run less than many on here and yet, some could spank everybody on here when it comes to running.

It's all very complicated and I'm confused:(